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Lou: Hi, this is episode 58 of Write While True.

Write While True is an infinite loop, and that’s because we think of writing as an infinite game, a game we’re playing for fun and to get better at it, like a game of catch.

So in each episode, we’ll tell you something we learned about writing, and then we’ll throw you the ball with a writing challenge or prompt.

This episode, 58, is the first episode of season six, where Brian and I will be interviewing other software engineers who, like us, like to write in public.

I’m Lou Franco.

Brian: And I’m Brian Hall, and we’re pleased to be here today with Glenn Stovall, who is a senior engineer, the author of the State Transition Substack, and is also working on a book about product thinking for engineers.

Glenn, welcome.

Glenn: Hey, Brian. Hey, Lou. Thanks for having me.

Lou: Yeah, thanks for coming on.

Brian: Absolutely. A pleasure. And let’s just get into it.

You have written quite a lot of stuff, and I’ve been reading your writing for several years.

And if we can, just wind it all the way back and tell us as a senior engineer and someone who plays around with code all day, how did you come to writing? 

Glenn: That’s, yeah, that’s a good question.

I feel like it’s, it’s hard for me to kind of remember like where it all really started. I feel like I’ve been doing this, I think at my very first blog post I probably put up in like 2013, 2014, something like that.

But yeah, I really like what y’all said infinite game at the start, because I think it’s what got me interested in it was I, you know, working in tech, I feel like, especially like back then, there was a new JavaScript framework, like every 12 to 18 months. And I just felt like all this knowledge is kind of ephemeral. And I was like, I want to find a skill that I can just like, keep practicing and getting better at like for the rest of my life. And I just kind of tried writing really enjoyed it.

Like I’ve sort of said that I just plan to write and, you know, do deadlifts until I can’t do either anymore. And then that’ll be it.

But yeah, so just did that and have written online off and on ever since then.

Lou: And can you tell me how you came to Substack? 

Glenn: Yeah, I think I had written on a few different platforms. Like I’d had my own blog, I had something on Medium, I was on using ghost.io for a while. And yeah, it’s sort of just taking a break from it for a while, and then decided to get back into it and just kind of like, I think it’ll start like a new site with its own name and its own thing.

I like I used to just write under like glennstovall.com. And that would like, stress me out, because I’m just like, one, and I’m like, oh, it’s all like my name and my thing. It’s like my personal brand.

And then also, if I ever wanted to ever invite any collaborators or anything, it felt weird.

So I don’t know, I want to do that. And I feel like Substack was, I was just, I was reading stuff on Substack. I was kind of liked what I saw there. It seemed like a good platform. So just decided to set it up on there.

Lou: Right. How long ago was that? 

Glenn: I think I started this, State Cernedus, and I started in 2022.

Brian: I am not familiar with any of your older stuff, I guess, going back before the Substack. But even just within the Substack and within the last few years, you do cover quite a lot of topics, which I love. I think that’s the way to do it. 100%.

If you would, for the listener, and we will, of course, link out to the Substack in the show notes. So welcome to go explore on your own, everybody.

But could you give a little survey of sort of what’s what’s in scope? What, if anything, is out of scope? What all do you write about? In addition to the very focused product thinking for engineers?

Glenn: Yeah, I sort of have, that’s like the one like unifying thread.

I, yeah, I sort of joked that the, I guess like I’ve shook the topic of the blog is just like, whatever I’m on about at time of publication, which is just whatever’s most interesting.

I think when I started this one, I also used to write some, there was a section of my career, I was doing a lot of freelancing and consulting, and I was writing a lot, sort of like, as like a marketing, like demonstrating expertise. And this one, I was just like, you know, I was like, I just kind of have fun with it. 

So the original idea was, like I said, I started in 2022. And I just kind of felt like there was like a lot of change going on both in the world and in my life. Like, I feel like, like covid was starting to wind down. I feel like we were AI was just like a very new thing that was starting. I feel like social media was really at this phase where like, it stopped being about connection and started being all about influence and vertical videos.

And then in my personal life, like all within about a year, I, we had moved to a new city, I had taken a new job, I just become a father. So the sort of broad thing was just navigating change and uncertainty. But I guess that can be about pretty much anything.

Brian: Right. Got it. Yeah. Hence the name.

Glenn: A lot of a lot of stuff of like how AI is changing engineering, but it’s like, I, I feel like it’s going to be an engineer and like not write about it. It’s such a thing now.

Like I will, I’ll say this, I was an engineering manager for about 18 months and recently went back to being a, just a senior engineer. And I see, and I didn’t feel like I was going back to my old job. It feels like it’s now this new third job I’ve never had with like, for sure.

Lou: For sure.

In terms of like your, how you, how you write, do you find that your background as a software engineer informs your writing process, like, or anything about how you come to write? 

Glenn: I, I’d probably say so. I do feel like I’m very like somewhat systematic in how I do it. Like a lot of like, I’ll just start about like nested bulleted lists and like thinking about writing and blocks, not dissimilar to code where I’ve seen other people, especially from like a design or marketing background. I feel like they have more of a like linear, like flow to it, but yeah, I definitely think like, yeah, I do.

I am like a fan of having different, like sort of systems and generators for writing. So I’ll be like, oh, but I have like a list of like types of headlines or like common headline patterns or like, you know, different things like that to sort of like run through it.

Lou: Yeah. And, uh, the, uh, just, um, getting back to what you were talking about, Substack, having done it for now, I guess like four or five years. Um, how do you feel like it’s like, is, has it been what you expected from it? Like, I’m mostly I’m interested in the distribution aspect.

Cause like, you know, I assume it’s like, like any content management system, it’s, it’s an editor and, you know, all that stuff is probably normal, but like, I feel like the big advantage or the reason I feel a pull to it, even though I don’t use it, um, is that there’s some chance of distribution in it.

Glenn: Yeah, I have. Yeah. That was something else that attracted me to it is like, yeah, I do like the, I like their UI, both reading and writing. I think it’s really good.

They also now have their like notes section, which is like sort of their own, like basically like a Twitter X feed clone. Which I haven’t used a lot of, but I’ve heard good things about it, but yeah, you can also like recommend people get recommended. So I definitely do think it helps with distribution.

Like, I mean, I feel like the platform is, I mean, I feel like, you know, with your own site, you are just on your own. At some point there’s, there’s always a balance of like going where the people are and how you want to write on it. If I really want a distribution, I would find ways to package this up and like learn how to do tick tock YouTube voice and go make a bunch of vertical videos. But I just don’t want to.

I will say a thing I’ve learned, and this has been on my to-do list. I should do about distribution is they kind of have their own sort of like SEO algorithm. And the thing I have learned is that a subset, you can have like a paid or free newsletter. Like I don’t, I don’t have any paywalls up or anything, but I’ve learned that the algorithm does, I think, punish people for that. Like if I’m not charging money, Substack’s not going to get to take 20%.

Lou: YouTube definitely does that, that if you’re not, if you’re not monetizing your videos, you get less, I don’t know if it still works.

Glenn: I’ve seen some people basically set up like the minimum price and then you can run like a 90% coupons and they’re like, Hey, I’m not going to put anything behind a paywall, but if you want to like, give me $10 a year, like you now have that option.

Lou: Right.

Brian: So in the broad spectrum from, I write alone in a cave just to develop my own thinking or satisfy my own needs. And then at the other extreme being, yeah, I’ve become a tick tock influencer for the sake of eyeballs or whatever.

I would put you in the middle somewhere, but, uh, would you talk a little bit more about how you think about, I guess, where you want to be with that? Like you mentioned it, maybe you probably should do the Substack monetization for the sake of the reach, but also that you haven’t.

And I think this is a really hard question to explore. So I’m just curious how you think about it. What goals wise and current state wise.

Glenn: Yes. It’s the dozens, dozens of loyal fans, but, uh, yeah, I am with you. It is part of like the, that’s something I’ve struggled, like on distribution. I know another thing is just like consistency is number one. And I’ve, I’ve struggled to kind of balance, like, like I said, I usually want this to be like something for fun and like a fun outlet and like creative, but, but then to like, you know, I’ve had spurts of consistency, but then it’s like, does sort of like make it more of a stressor.

I mean I feel like it’s kind of ironic talking about like, Oh, like saying consistently and you’ll look and you’re probably going to see, I haven’t put anything out in like five months though. Like I really like should.

I’m sorry. What was the, what was your original question? Like I’ve rambled in terms of distribution.

Brian: Like, do you, do you have grand designs? Do you pay attention to audience size? Do you have a goal? Are you trying actively not? Uh, I don’t think it was a wrong answer.

Glenn: I haven’t, I haven’t thought about it a ton.

I mean, if I do want to like, so like I said, if I have a book I’m working on the side, there’s a part of me, it’s like, well, if you want to make sales, you’re going to have to like, you know, do that. But I, I mean, mostly like with the writing I’ve, you know, I feel like if you just got one person who really likes it and engages with it, like I, I used to say, like, I wasn’t going to measure like total number of subscribers.

I try to measure it in like interesting conversations and opportunities I have, like, like if I write a post and someone’s like, Oh, Hey, I read this. I thought that was cool. What about this? Like, did you think about that? 

Lou: That actually transitions me to a question I have, which is what are the kinds of things that you’ve gotten out of it? I’ve, I’ve in, in the past on this podcast and past episodes, I’ve talked about like very little of what I’ve gotten out of writing is like, for example, paid subscriptions to the writing or anything like that.

But there have been so many opportunities, customers, job opportunities, like things like that, that I’ve gotten out of it.

Is that to tell, tell, tell us what, what kinds of things, you know? 

Glenn: Oh, Oh, 100%.

And yeah, I feel like with the exception of like 20 people, people aren’t like subsack is not their primary money generator, but yeah, I feel, I feel like a good example from like earlier in my career, I mentioned doing freelancing.

I remember AngularJS was sort of the new hotness at the time. And I had, I had used it on a client project. They had already like sort of chosen this technology, but I learned it. I thought it was really cool. When I started, like, I kind of wrote like an AngularJS 101 and it like, and then I’m getting a ton of traffic.

And then I got invited to like a talk at a local tech meetup group and basically, you know, did the article in real life for half an hour. And then ended up landing like two more clients from that. And there was a good, like two years where in like my Southeast region, they’re just like, Oh Glenn, he’s like the Angular guy. And I’m like, I just wrote a thing.

Like, it’s funny how much I realized a lot of expertise is not that people are that much smarter, but it’s just that they are willing to like put their ideas together and like put them out there. So yeah, that is like definitely helped.

Lou: I can’t say enough about how many times I’ve seen that kind of thing. And so, you know, just talking to the audience here, like, you know, there is very little writing you need to do to stand out. Even now, even I would say even now in like maybe more saturated, if you write something good, it is very possible for it to stand out and result in something like a client more than, for example, a thousand paid subscribers to your substack.

I think that’s a very hard goal to have, but you can, um, very easily, you know, make it successful for yourself through opportunities.

Glenn: Yeah, for sure. Like, I used to joke that I think my blog maybe has like less than a hundred subscribers, but like one of them was like one of the VPs at my company. So how many subscribers is that worth to, you know, have their attention to spread ideas? 

Lou: Oh yeah.

Brian: We’re all three in that boat. I think of having not a massive audience, but having written stuff that helped us meet new people that we still talk to having written stuff that helped us find paying gigs and yeah, you’re right.

It’s a good point being perceived as an expert in a way that is almost surprising or a little bit nerve wracking almost, you know, really? Am I, I guess so. I wrote that blog post.

Glenn: Yeah. I, I will say a funny side effect I hadn’t thought about, but when I was, uh, at my company, when I would be interviewing people for engineer positions, I would occasionally have candidates and they’ll be like, Oh, Hey, I read your blog post. I really liked this.

And I’m like, I was like, I was like, I appreciate it. I feel like you’re just trying to curry favor and like, it’s actually, it’s actually feels very awkward, but thank you.

Lou: I take it as a sign of someone who does research. So I was like, I just put a tick. This is a person who will prepare for meetings and do research. I don’t care exactly what they say about it, but like the fact that they read it, uh, like went to go look for it, thought to go look for it, engage with it, read it, thoughts.

Like that means that they’re a person who would do that in other contexts.

Glenn: I totally agree. It was definitely like a plus, but I think it was more so, like I said, this is what I kind of did like on the fun for the weekends. I didn’t think of these worlds colliding in that fashion until the first time it happened. And I was like, Oh yeah.

Like we talked about getting audience. Like sometimes you’re like, Oh, I mean, yeah, when you don’t have like a ton of engagement, you don’t have a ton of following. Sometimes it does feel weird to remember that like, Oh yeah, people are reading this.

And even then it’s, it feels so arbitrary, but even if it’s like a hundred people, it’s like, imagine talking to a room of a hundred people. Like that’s a good chunk of people.

Brian: Like, yeah, I want to check in on the book, I guess. Tell us a little bit about the book. From my internet stalking, it looks like you’ve got, I don’t know, on the order of 20 posts that are sort of tagged as book topics. I’ve read a bunch of them.

How’s it coming? What’s the status? Uh, have you changed how you’re thinking about the project in 2026? 

Glenn: Uh, good question. Yeah. Status.

Um, yeah, I guess for, for, for the listener, I started a book, basically it’s like a book of like product thinking for engineers, um, calling it Own The Outcome.

I think I started this project around 2024 and I’ve been working on off and on, like I got to an almost final draft at the start of the year and then just had some other stuff in life, just taking up some other time and energy.

So I kind of had to put it on the back burner, but I am like coming back to it. It is daunting.

I think I have a draft of like 160 pages and I think I seem to clean that up.

It’s, it’s very, a thing I didn’t think about is it’s very hard with like a nonfiction book of like, when is this done? Like, yeah, I try to do a lot of research and it’s like every book and paper will have other books and papers as sources. And I’m like, I could do this forever.

So, but I think I am at a point where I’m just like, all right, I think I just have to be like, at some point, this is good enough. I think I’ve covered my bases. I like really just sitting and doing it at this point.

2026, it is like, I’ll say another challenge and maybe all I’ve thought about this is I, I think I recently saw a study that like the sale of nonfiction books, I think is down like 50 to 75%. This is largely attributed to AI. Like why read a book when you can just ask, you know, ask a chat bot about it.

A thing that gives me pause is like, one, like, is this still worth it? And two, I remember we talked about AI moving so fast in this industry.

I’m like, man, should be putting more time and energy trying to like keep up with this technology and changing environment instead of doing something as ancient as like writing a lot of words in a row. But I’m also probably just making excuses to myself.

But yeah, it is like, it does, does kind of take the wind out of your sails a bit because that’s something y’all have thought about.

Lou: Yes, for sure.

So if I hadn’t finished and published my book last year, I would probably need to completely rewrite it. Not because I don’t think the content is applicable.

I do, but it would, I would want to more head take on directly in almost all chapters, the AI part of what I’m trying to say, which I addressed in one chapter in the book to basically say, like, these are our principles that can be done with AI, do them with AI.

And that is true.

I do all the things I say in the book with AI, but, but for marketing purposes, I would want to be able to say truthfully on the cover of the book that it was an AI take. An AI prominent take on what I’m saying, which I can’t honestly say that that’s what it is.

It’s kind of neutral. It’s not, it all works with AI or not AI.

And in this market, I don’t think you can get out of the, like, it’s very hard to, to be trying to sell something that’s not AI prominent, like it takes it more head on.

So that, that would definitely have happened. I think I would still have written it.

So I’m trying to figure out what to do with augment, augmenting it to the people who have come to my newsletter and give, give them free content, like maybe go through each chapter and say, like, here’s the AI version of that, of that chapter, which I don’t think is a lot different, but you have to say it.

Glenn: And I think it’s another tricky bit too, is I’ve, I’ve had these similar thoughts of, I’ve been like, I, I kind of like, I kind of want to write a book that’s like somewhat about evergreen principles. Like, you know, on a sense, like product design, like hasn’t, you know, fundamentally changed. 

I think Christopher Alexander’s, he sums it up. Like you have a, like you have the form and object that’s like in a context used by a person to solve a problem. Like that’s like, we’ve done that since like, you know, cavemen made fire or sticks or whatever, but on the hand, yeah, like you said, like, you can’t ignore that.

Like, Oh, AI is part of the conversation. Like I could be like, Oh, product thinking and taste are more relevant now. Cause you know, the price of code is like approaching zero, but something I’ve thought about is like so far. And now you’ve got me rethinking it. It was like, try to have the book focused on trying to be evergreen.

I did have like one section about it, which I probably should go rewrite of like how I thought AI impacted this two years ago. I’m sure it was wildly different now, but trying to keep the book more evergreen and then trying to on the blog can be sort of like, you know, what’s, where are we at today? That’s, that’s my, my concern is to write something like you said, that then a year ago feels ancient.

Lou: Yeah. I mean, so I personally think that what I wrote is evergreen and I still stand by that.

Um, but not being able to say in the marketing or on the cover that there, that there’s an AI focus element to it, I think makes it very hard to, to, to market.

Um, so yeah, so I guess that’s what I would say about that.

Like, so in somewhere on, on, on the cover of the book to say that, yes, I totally know that AI is a thing that I’m going to talk about, um, that I think is, um, important, important, uh, if marketing the book is, you know, like if, if that kind of thing, like a, it depends why you’re writing it, but you know, like, um, yeah, that’s my personal take on it.

I don’t know what you think, Brian.

Brian: Yeah. I think Glenn, you mentioned you haven’t published anything in a, in a bit, in a few months, I think you said, and I am in a similar place with blogging. And I think what’s holding me back more than anything has been an exhaustion with the discourse.

If you don’t want to write about large language models, what, is there a place for that? Does it, will anyone read it? Does anyone care? And I, as just, as we talk it out, I’m realizing, I don’t know that the answer is no. It might be that the readers are out there who are relieved that that’s not your topic, but, but I actually don’t know. Cause there’s so much noise and there’s such giant PR budgets behind this movement that it’s hard to say.

Glenn: It’s very, it’s very hard to, I feel like to talk about like anything in tech or working in tech without it. Cause it’s so, you know, it is so everywhere. I think there’s still plenty of room for things that isn’t like directly engineering related. Like we’re all still humans.

Lou: Like I totally think your topic, um, it’s not like I’m going to, I don’t, I don’t know exactly what you’re going to say, but I don’t, I don’t necessarily think that not like, like, so things like actually programming, actually laying down code, like you kind of have to talk about AI cause AI is doing that part a lot now. Um, but that’s not what you’re, you’re talking about.

Of course AI would be part of it, but, um, I think people are doing, you know, all kinds of whatever back and forth talking with it, like organizing research, all those things, but I don’t know how much those are topics in your book.

Glenn: I think it was just like, yeah, just, I mean, ultimately like you still have to just like, if I’m with AI, you still have to help me decide like what you’re building and how you’re designing it. Like you, you know, there’s still a lot of thinking of like, Oh, like who is the user and what is our problem and how can you like support them? 

Uh, like you’re not being an engineer. I do think one thing I talk about is I think, I think a lot of people think of like both writing and product design as this sort of like very abstract, almost like magical creative thing where I’m like, no, I think all of these are, and can be like very like systematic while still maintaining the ability to be creative.

It is hard to like, if you look at something and be like, Oh, you look at a design and be like, why is this good? But that is like a learnable skill.

Lou: That is definitely a problem that I would be looking forward to seeing what you say about that. I was going to say, I feel like there’s people bring, um, like the end result of opinions, like I don’t like it or whatever it’s to this, but not, you know, getting at an actionable thing I could actually do to the product that solves.

I’m not saying the feeling is wrong, but I can’t do anything with that feeling.

Glenn: So, yeah, I think a similar example. I like how he approached the problem was, uh, I recently read a book by, uh, Scott Dickers, who was the managing editor of The Onion for 20 years. And he has a book of like how to write funny.

And it’s just like, yeah, I have to have a couple dozen people writing funny headlines and articles like every day, week in, week out, month in, month out. And I don’t know, I like The Onion’s writing. It’s very funny and unique, but it’s interesting for him to just be like, Oh no, all of this, you can have a system. He’s like, there are, there are exactly 11 ways to be funny, no more, no less.

And so you can just take an idea and try to apply those 11 things and see what you come up with.

Brian: You know, not, not to put you on the spot, but you saying that reminds me of something.

I think I heard you say a little bit earlier that you have, uh, you like to have generators, there are X types of headlines for headings, for example.

Could you say more about that? Could you share a couple of examples? I’ve never thought of it that way. I’m, I’m sure you’re probably right. Like, but what, what are some types of headlines? 

Glenn: Yeah. Uh, I was going to read some of these. And I think the thing about these two is like, you could get formulaic. I just see these as starting points, but it’s, yeah.

So I think here are some of the, some of the ones I have, it’s just like the blank fallacy, the art of blank, the, like the X of Y, um, some are like old programming trips, like blank considered harmful, false programming about blank.

I think another interesting one was, um, I don’t remember the exact paper, but I saw it in something, uh, Venkatesh Rao, who was another blogger in the tech scene I really liked was someone wrote like a research paper that basically they’re like, oh, there’s roughly 11 structures.

An interesting idea can have. And so if you want to be more interesting, it’s like, oh, like, Hey, these things you thought were all disconnected, they’re actually connected. Or this thing you think was one phenomenon. It’s actually several different things. You know, this thing you think it’s good for you. It’s actually bad. Like, yeah, it’s somebody I feel, I feel like it’s so bad about the, it’s not X it’s Y.

Lou: That’s, that’s a tell it’s either a tell or everyone just thinks it’s a tell. So you can’t use it basically anymore.

I’m not saying anyone should follow what I do, but a lot of my titles are the sentence I would link to this from in another post. Like they’re meant to be linked to each other. So it’s wiki-ish in that way. Like, but it’s, it’s a sentence I would write in a different post that I would highlight, you know, that I would link to this post. I just want the sentence to be the same. So a lot of them read like that.

So they’re, they’re, uh, but they’re not, um, they’re never going to be the kind of thing that, uh, draws attention. I think I’m kind of just trying to make it easy for me to link to posts.

Glenn: I think another interesting approach I’ve seen is, uh, I’ll shout someone else on sub stack, but Henrik Carlson has a blog called Escaping Flatland. And we’ll just have these incredibly long titles. And he’s like, I feel like people say 80% of people only read the title. So he’s like, I’m going to get my money’s worth.

I was just trying to find an example.

He has one post titled: sometimes the reason you can’t find people you resonate with is because you misread the ones you meet.

Lou: Right. I got it. Yeah. I like, honestly, I like that a lot that resonates with me.

Brian: This is great. So this, if I’m getting it in the way that writing might seem like this sort of mystical, unspoken, creative inspiration practice, but actually you can have formulas, patterns, techniques, at least at starting points or unstuck tools.

Humor can be apparently allegedly.

Glenn: I, I mean, I think it’s like any creative discipline. Like, I mean, how, how much, how many songs have like verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus, or, or, you know, the, the 12 bar blues, like how many songs follow this formula? 

Like it’s, it kind of gives you a starting point or even then if you’re not using it, you can kind of like lampshade and be like, Oh, let’s like not do the thing.

Brian: Well, so I want to invite you to pitch your book for a minute. Cause it seems like it’s parallel to that, right. It’s about a process or phenomenon that might seem obscure, but actually can be explained. Am I correct in that? 

Glenn: Yeah. I think, I think that is, it is sort of trying to demystify and give some people some tools of like, you can have sort of different heuristics to judge things, different ways to practice, like building your taste and intuition. Like I feel like taste is a big buzzword now.

And I, one point I do make, cause I feel like people think it’s, you have it or you don’t, which I disagree with. I think it is a muscle. It’s a learnable skill. It’s something you can like actively develop, but yeah, there’s that. And a lot of, you know, like a lot of product design and things is, you know, there’ve been research on user heuristics and how people think, how people feel like, you know, I feel, I feel like The Design of Everyday Things was probably sort of the seminal classic in this field, but yeah, a lot of that. And how can you just, I try to like take these principles, but cool.

How can you apply it? Cause I, you know, even when I make stuff like, I’m not the most designer centric, but like, you know, just knowing some, knowing a little bit about like typography and colors can go a long way and it’s not magic. It’s just science.

I, I wish I had the notes. I had a designer friend once give a talk about typography and just, which was always, I’m like, yeah, some fonts look good together and some don’t. And he once just gave like a 20 minute talk and he’s just like, yeah, here’s, here’s all the math and science of it. And here’s how you can do it.

Lou: And is the best place to, uh, if somebody was interested in following along and knowing when the, when the book was available, it’s the best place to do the best thing to do to subscribe to your substack.

Glenn: Yeah. I, I just put all of my writing on there and there’s some sample chapters and things.

Lou: As a reminder, everybody, it’s going to be in the show notes. So you can get to Glenn’s sub stack by going to statetransition.co and that’ll, that’ll, uh, get you over there.

And so you can read posts, read sample chapters and his other writing.

Glenn: Yeah. I even have a little start here page. If you’re new, it’s highlights sort of what I’m about in a few selections.

Lou: Great. So, so Glenn, one of the things we really like to do on right while true is to give the audience some kind of takeaway that would, uh, help them accomplish something more with their writing or get started.

It could be anything you think and tools, marketing, nothing, nothing is, uh, out of scope.

Glenn: Uh, yeah, I, I mean, I felt like there’s a few things to it. If you’re writers, you already know it. 

I just feel like it’s a very, like the practice is very mentally good. It’s not even the, it’s like the act of writing more than the publishing. Like I, I do still try to write something every day if it’s a journal or something, but I, I don’t know. 

Sometimes I joke, like I started doing this about secondary effects. I’m like, man, so many people are just out here, like running around on first drafts of their thoughts.

Like writing does force you to actually organize it and clarify your thinking, you know, or sometimes instead of write a post, I’m like, I have a post about this idea and I try to like formulate it and like find some research. I’m like, actually, it’s not that good of an idea.

I should stop saying that.

But yeah, I would just say like, yeah, I just think it’s worth it even if, you know, no one’s reading it. And, uh, the other thing I would say is like, um, no, I, I think it’s, I feel like being creative, there is this sort of pull of like, you want to do it, but it’s also scary to put yourself out there. And I would just say like, yeah, just have some, some fun with it.

I have a whole article, one article called play a serious business of like, yeah, I think actually just being playful with things is going to encourage, um, more creativity and better ideas than like trying to write the next great American essay or whatever.

So yeah, you know, just go have some fun.

Lou: I totally agree. Glenn, and that’s, I feel like that’s so in line with what how Brian and I have the things we’ve talked about in this podcast. I mean, I personally find myself having done the writing and clarified my thinking when I, sometimes I find myself in a context where I’m basically quoting myself. I’m regurgitating well thought out ideas because I went over them. They’re not just off the top of my head. I wrote about them several times.

I don’t have to tell them that. I don’t send them an article or whatever, but I just like summarize the ideas that I’ve personally owned a little better than like you just said, the first drafts of ideas is such a great way of talking about it.

If you bring it, if you bring it to publishing and then you’ve taken it to several drafts, you end up with a much more polished idea in your head.

Glenn: Yeah. And just having, we’re just playing with it, getting a little weird with it.

Like I, I think this is one good thing is I think just being more playful, being even weirder is how we’re going to separate ourselves from the robots.

Another tip that’s helped me get unstuck and I should probably go make myself do this this weekend as I have a one section of my blog of pieces I called At the Edges.

And you know, many times I’ll have a post, I’ll go and like do some research and spend several hours outlining it, like polishing it where these were ones where I pretty much just set myself a 60 minute timer and say, Oh, pick one thing and just write about it and go. And goal is a goal is a finished rough draft in an hour.

And then just, yeah, it doesn’t have to be a whole big thing. You could just like, you know, just do something just to get anything out there. And, you know, I also got to remind myself, if we look at distribution, I don’t think there’s a huge distinction on the pieces I spent 20 hours on versus the one I spend one. Like sometimes it’s, you know, you get out of your own way and someone’s like, Oh, actually this is really good.

I’ve accepted that what I think will really resonate with people and what actually does is I have very little insight into it. So you just got to get it all out there and see what happens.

Lou: Yeah. Same.

This has been episode 58.

It’s the first episode of our sixth season, a season where we’ll be having on guests like Glenn are engineers who write out in public, uh, to try to find out, you know, get a different perspective, different tips than, than Brian and I have come up with.

And I hope that if you’re one of those people get in touch with us, you can do that by going through the Write While True website at loufranco.com.

There’s ways to contact me on LinkedIn. Let me know that you’d like to be a guest. As long as you have some public writing, a book, a blog, a sub stack, whatever, we’d love to talk to you.

So thank you very much.

This has been Write While True, a podcast where we love infinite loops, as long as they’re fun.