Lou: Hi, I’m Lou Franco and this is episode 48 of Write While True. Write While True is an infinite loop and that’s because I think of writing as an infinite game, a game I’m playing for fun and to get better at it, like a game of catch.
So in each episode, we’ll talk about something I learned about writing and then I’ll throw you the ball with a writing challenge or a prompt.
This is the beginning of season five, episode 48, and I’m going to tell you about something that we’re doing a little different now. This has always been a podcast where I, a software developer, talks to you, who I think are also software developers, about what I write and I’m trying to share with you tips and techniques for writing for people like us that want to write.
And in this season of Write While True, we’re going to start something new.
Write While True is now a collaboration between me and another software developer who writes. His name is Brian Hall. And throughout the entirety of this run of podcasts, I’ve talked a lot about the kinds of things I write, blogs, and I wrote a book, and this podcast.
But now I’d like to introduce Brian, Brian Hall, and I’d like him to, you know, tell us about himself and what he, what he writes.
Brian: Hey there, I’m Brian. As Lou said, a software developer who writes. I spent many years writing front-end code for A-B tests on marketing websites. And after a while of doing that and blogging about it, I wrote a whole book about it.
And since then, I’ve continued, and I’ve got a couple other books in progress in the works, and I’m getting back to blogging after a hiatus.
Glad to be here. Thanks.
Lou: Okay, thanks, Brian. I’m so excited about this. I think, I was thinking about today, you know, what’s different about Write While True now that we’re working together? And I think that two things kind of came to mind.
And one is just, like, obviously, everything about you, Brian, as a person, all the differences you have from me and the kinds of things you like to write. And we’re going to get into that in future episodes because you write some things that are way different from the kinds of things I like to write. So I’m going to be really interested in hearing about all of that.
But then there’s also the new idea that it’s a collaboration, a conversation.
And so whereas I’ve been monologuing it into this microphone for a few years, now it’ll be something more back and forth. What do you think about what’s going to be different now?
Brian: I think maybe we should sell it a bit because when you bring in a collaborator, you all of a sudden have all this overhead of communication and project management and scheduling that doesn’t exist when it’s just you writing.
So we should talk a little bit about why bother, what the pros are. And the first thing for me, I guess, is the energy that it brings, especially if you’ve been writing in your own little quiet corner for a long time. To collaborate with someone else just infuses you with a little bit of motivation and expands what’s possible, at least if you do it right.
Lou: Oh, yeah, definitely. One of the stories I wanted to tell, and this is a good jumping off point, is I wrote a book about iOS development in 20 – well, let’s say it got published in 2013.
But I started it a couple of years before, and I wrote three quarters of it by myself. It was just going to be a solo book, but I just hit a wall where I just lost all energy and motivation to complete the book, and there were three chapters left.
And I was lucky to find someone, his name is Eitan Mendelowitz, who was an academic, a comp sci professor at a local college whose job is to publish and write. And when we met – and he was also a mobile – he taught mobile development.
So not only did he bring new energy and time, but also just like he himself was another expert in our combined field, gave more cachet to the project and published soon after bringing him on board because he was able to plow through those final chapters. And also handle all of the stuff that took us to the end of the book.
So I don’t know if that book would ever have been done if I didn’t find a collaborator, honestly.
Brian: That’s the maybe absolute best case scenario. It was a large, ambitious project, completely stalled out, and then a very knowledgeable and motivated collaborator who literally helps you get it to the finish line. Is amazing if you can manifest it.
And we should probably talk about lower stakes, lower scale collaboration.
Lou: Yeah, for sure.
Brian: With collaborating, maybe you’re not even working on a book. And I guess I’ll pass it back to you, Lou. What do you think of as maybe an easy entry point for collaborative writing?
Lou: Well, one of the things that both of us believe in is getting beta readers of your work.
Even, it doesn’t have to, you know, we both do it for books, but it certainly can be done even at the blog or essay level.
This is just, you know, finding someone, someone in your audience to just read your work before it’s published and to give you some feedback on it.
Brian: Yeah, absolutely. I definitely consider that collaboration. And it brings the exact benefits we’re discussing. So you’ll get an idea of what’s really working, what’s maybe not working, what’s confusing, needs some attention. And at least for me, it is incredibly motivating to see that feedback.
It’s one thing to write. I love to write just for its own sake. But it’s a different experience to see someone else respond to it and say, hey, this helped. Hey, I tried this. Stuff like that. So just making sure.
And this is a small scale one-to-one or one-to-one, one-to-one relationship with your beta readers where you’re just sharing it with a few people. It’s not a massive audience. It’s not a massive project. Literally, hey, I’m working on this piece. Would you have time to give me some feedback? Congratulations, you’re collaborating.
Lou: So what would be the, what would you think would be the next level after that?
Brian: Maybe it would be actually co-authoring something on some level.
And I think maybe there’s degrees of that too, where it could be as simple as interviewing somebody and writing it up.
And so then the content and the information is collaboratively created, but you’re still writing on your own.
And other ways to do that too may be guest blog posts, where you reach out to somebody whose stuff you like to read and say, hey, would you ever want to do a guest post?
And if they say yes, now you’re writing and it’s almost like you have an editor, which is certainly a collaboration.
Lou: So you’re saying guest posts on there, in their space.
Brian: Yeah. Or the reverse, I guess, either way. Sometimes it’s good just to propose a collaboration with the person you want to work with.
Lou: Maybe both at the same time.
Brian: Yeah. Let’s trade.
Lou: Yeah, absolutely. I’ve seen ones where they even take two takes on the same topic.
You know, like a topic that they both tend to cover and I do my take on it and you do your take on it, but we don’t post it on our own sites.
We post it on each other’s sites.
Brian: Yeah. That’s a great idea.
And so all of that starts with deciding on someone you’d like to work with and just reaching out and saying, hey, would you ever want to collaborate? And let it take shape as it will.
You don’t have to have the full project in mind before you start the conversation.
Lou: Yeah. In our case, we’ve actually known each other for two, I think two, over two years.
I think we met through the Write Useful Books author community, and I’ve talked about that in past podcast episodes.
If you’re a listener, you know all about that. If not, what is it? WriteUsefulBooks.com. And you can find out more about that. But we both do writer accountability groups, which is another form of collaborating. Maybe even lower stakes because all it is and meeting for an hour and writing with other people on a silent Zoom. You know, like so. But then we talk about problems we run into and things like that.
Brian: Exactly.
Lou: But what I was trying to say is we knew each other. So we’re starting this collaboration now after having known each other for two years. But there you might find that you want to start a relationship with a collaboration, which is that that’s happened.
That’s what happened with Eitan and I on my first book.
How about, you know, what do you think about that?
Brian: Like trying to start something, start a collaboration with someone you don’t even know yet.
Lou: Yeah.
Brian: I say why not? I think be bold and reach out and ask. It doesn’t hurt to ask.
And probably you will find that other people out there are in a similar situation where they would also appreciate an infusion of new ideas, a little bit of energy. So asking a stranger is a great way to meet somebody.
And you can do a limited scope, trial basis, just one season of the podcast, just one post written together or one exchange of posts to see how it goes.
Lou: Yeah. I mean, some of the podcasts I listen to that I really enjoy are collaborations between people who barely knew each other at the beginning of their podcast. One that comes to mind is script notes with John August and Craig Mazin. They’re both screenwriters.
They sort of knew each other, but I think they both had popular blogs in the script writing space. And then one of them reached out to the other and they got to know each other more through that collaboration.
Brian: So in proper, right, well, true fashion, we should leave with a task or a challenge that somebody can take on right now. If you want to find a collaborator, what do you do? What is the very next step?
Lou: Well, if this is something that you’re really dipping a toe in, I would say to ask someone to read something that you’ve written before you publish it.
So if you currently have a blog and you, and, or a sub stack or something like that, find someone who, you know, already to make it easy, but who is also someone who you think is your, you know, represents your audience.
Reach out to them and ask them to read something before you send it out.
Brian: I think that’s a great start.
And I’ll throw in a couple of tips for how to frame this to get the most useful feedback you can.
Be sure to downplay the quality and the effort that’s gone into this draft.
Be like, hey, it’s, it’s a rough draft.
Still needs some work that frees them to tell you what’s wrong with it. Otherwise you might just get, yeah, it’s great, which doesn’t really help. And if you ask them to focus specifically on what are the parts that you find the most useful, what are the parts that you find the most confusing, that helps them structure their feedback so that you can go in and actually make sure to keep the useful stuff and fix the confusing stuff.
Lou: Right. Well, that’s great, Brian. Thanks so much.
This has been episode 48 of Right While True, a podcast where we love infinite loops as long as they’re fun.